8. From Weddings to Book Deals: Evolving a Hand-Lettering Business with Crew and Co

Alane: 0:32

Hello and welcome back to another episode of calligraphy biz corner. We've got a guest interview for you today and they aren't in the wedding business or at least not anymore. Today we are chatting with Courtney and Will, the owners of Crew and Co. They are a product based business and they just published their second book called Abundant Grace. We're super excited to share their perspective with you because these are things that we haven't done before. So we really hope that this episode highlights how many different paths. that calligraphy and lettering can take you down. One of my biggest takeaways from this interview, we're recording our little intro after we've already chatted with them, but one of my biggest takeaways from the interview with them was just this idea of. Building a business that's built on authenticity and alignment with your values and then how that will help you create a quote unquote successful business in the long run.

Shaochen: 1:32

Yeah, that really resonated with me as well. I felt like they really just took one step at a time. And just did what felt right in that moment for the next moment. One of the things that will mention that I really loved was kind of in this entrepreneurship journey, you don't always realize what you're building for a while, it seems like nothing's happening, nothing's happening. Nothing's happening. And then one day you're like, Whoa. I've got a little something here. You know, I've got a business. And I just love that hearing that from them who are really successful now, you know, so, I wanted to share a little bit about the background of this interview since we found it to be kind of. Interesting, um, about a month ago, at the time of this recording, we received an email from someone at a book publishing company, Penguin Random House, and Elaine and I were immediately like, Someone found our podcast email and it wasn't spam. I mean, we were honestly so surprised that anybody even knew about us because our podcast was like three weeks old at the time, but I think it just goes to show that just put, put it out there, whatever you're building, whatever you're creating, cause you never know what could happen. You know, who knows what the next email will be that comes into our inbox. And then also fun fact, Elaine used to actually work at Penguin Random House, even though this is like a completely unrelated inquiry. So yeah, it just did feel very kind of, you know, and meant to be.

shaochen_2_03-20-2024_130231: 2:59

Um

Alane: 2:59

Well, and that connection came in handy because as soon as we got the email, I was like texting my friends who still work there like, can you make sure that this is a real person that's emailing us? And this isn't spam.

Shaochen: 3:11

Yeah. Are we actually getting scammed right now? But that email is how we got connected to Courtney and Will, and we can't wait to bring their story to you. Make sure that you listen to the end of this podcast because we're going to be talking about how you can enter a really cool giveaway from them. So let's dive in.

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 3:31

Today we have two very special guests. We have Courtney and Will joining us on Calligraphy Biz Corner. They are a husband and wife team and they are owners of Crew Co. They are based in Mississippi and we are super excited to chat with them about their nine years in business from how they got their start in the calligraphy world, all the way to creating products that encourage families to make scripture a practical part of their Daily lives. So welcome to calligraphy biz corner, Will and Courtney.

Kassners: 4:00

Thank you. We're so excited. We're excited. Super excited to be here.

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 4:05

to kick things off, would you guys mind giving our listeners just a little bit of an introduction to who you are?

Kassners: 4:11

Yeah. So, um, We live in Mississippi. We have three kids. We both work in our business full time. So that took. Several years to get to that point to where we were both doing it full time. Yeah. How many, how many years have I been full time? Three, Three, three, four, four. I haven't been fired yet. I still, I can't believe it. I started doing calligraphy about 10 years ago after our first son was born. Um, And just doing that on the side, trying to help supplement income for my Corporate job because I wanted to be at home. I wanted to work from home. Uh, I wanted to do something creative. And so it just kind of slowly, slowly grew from there to become to where like 10 years later, now we're both doing this full time. So yeah, it's kind of crazy when you look back at it. It really is wild to like, to reminisce about the good old days when, you know, just early, late night, calligraphy envelopes. Crew, our oldest was a baby, I guess, kind of when he started. And so there were, there were so many times where Courtney would be like 14 envelopes into a wedding and he would just walk through and smear them up. And we're like, Oh, Oh No. Yeah, it was not our house at that time was not practical for, for us. Wet ink and calligraphy stuff everywhere. Yeah. But those memories are so much fun.

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 5:36

Yeah, absolutely. I feel like it's so funny when you do look back, like you said, because I'm also like, how did I have the stamina to go to work nine to five and then come home and work from five to 10, 11, 12,

Kassners: 5:51

factor. Yeah. Yeah. Cause now we go to bed at like eight 30.

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 5:56

Well, I know that you just shared a little bit about getting your start with calligraphy and that's kind of how you have, You know, morphed that into your business today, but I would love to hear a little bit more. And I'm sure our listeners would too, because they are calligraphers of how you like actually found calligraphy.

Kassners: 6:13

Yeah. So I'm sure like y'all, or like most of your listeners, I like in elementary school, love doodling, love doing, you know, bubble letters. I think in our art class, we had calligraphy lessons, but not like modern calligraphy. It was, you know, like old English with that slanted Constitution. So I used to think I was so good at that. Um, and that was probably in like fourth or fifth grade. so I've always loved writing and drawing letters and, you know, writing things for my friends and stuff like that. So, once I discovered, like, pointed pen calligraphy in the early, like, 2010s. I wanted to learn how to do it myself. So, um,, I kind of just like looked at things online. I got the book, Modern Calligraphy by Molly Thorpe. And so that really helps kind of guide me and show me how to do things. And then it was just a lot of trial and error. That was in the end of 2013, early 2014. And so through 2014, I just kind of like started doing things for friends, you know, signs, and I had an Etsy shop with advertising wedding calligraphy or addressing envelopes, and then it was just kind of word of mouth and through Etsy that I really got into the wedding calligraphy world. I got connected with A wedding planner in Memphis, which is where we're from, so I got a lot of business from her. So that was great doing place cards and all that kind of stuff. And then, you know, just doing signs for people, but like we said earlier, um, our son at the time was a baby and learning to walk and our house was very small and not conducive for a toddler with ink and things that did not need to be touched. From there we tried to figure out ways that I could kind of still be doing calligraphy. But. And not so much, I don't know, in a hostile environment. So I started trying to like learn to digitize, calligraphy, which that was a whole, I mean, I didn't know anything about illustrator or Photoshop or any of that stuff. Yeah, this was back, back in the day. I mean, in 2013, like it was, it was just like, everything is figureoutable. So yeah, it took a while, but it was a little more strenuous. Before the dawn of, uh, like procreate on the iPad, you know, like it took a little more ingenuity. Yeah. Yeah.

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 8:41

Yeah. Cause you were probably like writing things on paper, right. And then having to Scan it. and

Kassners: 8:46

And then I'm like, hot now. What? Like, yeah. And that, like, that sounds kind of like when your grandma tells you about how, you know, they had a outhouse in the yard when they were kids and you're like, that ain't real.

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 8:58

I like, it's hard for me to imagine a world without procreate for sure.

Kassners: 9:01

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I did get, um, I took a, like calligraphy, not calligraphy, a creative coaching call from somebody named Meredith Bullock. That was in 2014. It was through skype or something I don't know how I got connected with her, but she did some calligraphy and lettering and art and so she really helped me figure out illustrator and like Learning what on earth a vector was how to do that with? And I remember her walking me through exactly how to, like, scan the image and then get it in Photoshop or Illustrator and take the background off. And so, thinking about that now, it's like, man, we have come a long way. Oh, yeah. I mean, for sure. After I kind of learned how to do calligraphy, then we started teaching, or I started teaching workshops once a month, um, just in our area. And we would have like 10 to 20 normally women every month. And we'll would come with me as just like the entertainer. I was the TA

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 10:07

the hype man.

Kassners: 10:13

there helped and he just told like bad dad jokes. Except they were good. So, Will's not a calligrapher, but I think he could teach that class. On his own with as many times as he sat through. There was, there was a time where I, I had it down. I could, yeah. I could walk through and be like, Hey, adjust your angle a little bit. It's too steep, you know? So now, now I don't, I don't know if I could now, but for, for a while there, my downfall is I'm left-handed and it's just, it's just, you know, calligraphy iss difficult when you gotta go across it. I don't, I haven't, I haven't overcome that yet.

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 10:52

I always wonder how people manage not to smear their

Kassners: 10:55

Man, I don't, I don't, I still have like trauma from elementary school when we had to write on the chalkboard and I'm like, I can't, I can't, I don't know. So yeah, if you're out there left handed, we keep up the good work, uh, a few left handed. People and in those workshops. And I was like, um, trying to, you know, like trying to teach them the opposite way. Right. Right. Here's what you do. Grab the pin with your right hand.

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 11:22

So it sounds like Courtney, you started kind of in the wedding space and you were selling, like, the envelopes, place cards and things like that, signage, taught some workshops. And then in 2015, well, you joined Courtney and that's when you guys actually launched crew and co your current company, right? And you specialize in children's or at that time, at least you specialize in children's screen printed t shirts that feature Courtney's lettering. So can you talk a little bit about how You morphed from doing the wedding calligraphy into this like product world.

Kassners: 12:00

Yeah, so it was more of time and like time constraints and space constraints with our then. And then we had our second child in 2015. I was still working full time also and being a mom, I just didn't have the time to commit. To the wedding industry. Like y'all know, it's just so, I mean, it's time consuming. We have a friend that I grew up with. She owns Ryan and Rose. They make passes and stuff like that. she was encouraging me to start putting my hand lettering on t shirts. And so we finally did that. We figured out how to, at that time we had somebody's screen print for us. Um, but eventually we'll started doing the screen printing for all those shirts. Once I learned how to digitize my lettering, then we got it to be screen printed and it just kind of grew from there. Yeah. And really like everything, I guess our, our business model, uh, really has always been driven, uh, figuring out like, how can we spend more time with our kids? And, you know, like some people. In the business world, it's like, okay, how do I, like, how do I, you know, grow profits or grow products? And like, truthfully, I think our drive has always been like one, like how can we produce products that will give us freedom to be with our kids. But also like our drive in those early years was we gotta, we gotta get Courtney. Out of the the corporate world and into a place like we're like we really want to be as parents And so early on I think that was our that was our driver is is we want to be the best parents we can be and what that looks like for us is spending the the maximum amount of time with our kids and Yeah, I mean even now that's kind of like that's our that's our focus like our kids get home at About, uh, four o'clock every day. So I try to, I try to be there to play basketball in the driveway with the boys. Cause like, I know, yeah, I know that's what they want to do. And I, like we could, we could be up here at the office grinding away a little bit more, but our our intention really, and truly has always been like what, It's best for our family. And so the drive, from like moving out of the, the wedding world was kind of like, Hey, this is, this is high stress, man. And so, within Courtney's friend was like, Hey, y'all should think about t shirts. And at first it, it's kind of the entrepreneur world. It's like new ideas always seem so crazy and you think that would never work and then it works. And it's like, Oh, okay, that's cool. So like we moved into the t shirt world and that was fun because I really got to be involved in the business Because I became the the head printer and so we that was like when we officially started to I guess that's when Courtney became my boss for real for real Yeah,

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 15:04

ahead a little bit, but we talk a lot about creating a business that supports our lives. And I just love that you're talking about this. Theme about how you're keeping your family front and center. You're scaling the business accordingly in a way that allows you to be the parents you want to be, like you said. So I just absolutely love that. Can you tell us a little bit more about what it's like being a husband and wife team?

Kassners: 15:27

There's always a learning curve when you're figuring out how to work with somebody. But then like you leave work. And you go your separate ways and you're like, all right, bet I'll see you tomorrow. And you kind of like wash away whatever, you know, tension there was at work and you reset and you're good to go. The interesting thing about working with your spouse is like when you're done with work or trying to push off work, like you're, you're, still with them. Uh, so like, you know, like you're, you're together, you're, you're in it to win it. so I think it's been a fun learning curve. To kind of like better understand each other And I don't know if all girls are like this, but Courtney, especially I feel like she can read my mind So she kind of knows what I'm thinking before I think it so I think that helps a lot in our dynamic of working together But really it's just kind of understanding How we, how we thrive in different environments and like kind of knowing when to push, knowing when to, when to not, um, and kind of, I think we're still figuring it out. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. After four, four years, four or five years of being full time, working together, it's still like learning when, like, you know, if there's tension at home because of, I don't know if somebody didn't put their laundry away or whatever it might be like trying not to let that come into our workspace Especially now that we have other people working with us. I think it's good for it. I think it builds our togetherness because like It's kind of like with our, with our kids, we, we have a honesty policy where like, we're going to be, we're going to be as honest as possible. And we don't, we try really hard not to like sugar coat life from our kids. And I think we do the same thing for our employees where like, if they know if we're having a bad day that they probably are aware. Um, but I, I think it also kind of builds a, like a healthy community that it's, it's okay to have a bad day. It's okay to be a little off, but figuring out how to work through that and like the, the, the overall output is still net positive, kind of overcoming those hurdles to essentially say like, Hey, like, this is not, it's not all about me. You know, it's about us together as a team and in husband and wife role, like you really gotta Remind yourself of that quite frequently. Yeah. And like, well, like I said earlier, Will is the extrovert and I'm the introvert, but he knows like when I need to come in my office and I don't want anybody talking to me to give me space just because of like work stress or I don't know, an order or whatever it might be. Like we know that's a good thing is that we know when to give each other space. Yeah. And I always tell people, I genuinely feel that Courtney makes me a lot better. I remember this vividly for some reason, but me and a friend were at the gym one time and he was like, well, what are your goals in life? And this was like, I don't know, 2018. And I said, man, I don't think I have any really, you know, it's just, I'm just kind of like a, a floater, you know, I'm just, I'm just happy. Just being alive and kicking it and hanging out with the birds outside and stuff. Working with Courtney is like that. She sees where like my skills are almost more than I do. And so she's kind of pushed me, especially like with the, like for the book that we have coming out, for example, like I would have never done that by myself, but she's always kind of been my, like my sidekick, my coach, like, Hey, you're, you're a good writer. You should write like here, here's something we should push for. You should do this. You should do this. And so that's been. I think really cool for me to see is the husband wife connection Is just how much she's helped me like truly to grow and Just be better

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 19:25

mean, it sounds like you said, Courtney reads your mind. It sounds like the opposite is true too. So you just read each

Kassners: 19:31

yeah, yeah, back and forth

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 19:33

Well, we would love to hear, I mean, it sounds like when you. When you started to transition from like the weddings and the workshops to more of the actual physical products that you were selling, it sounds like it was still very hands on of a process. Like it sounds like Courtney, you were doing all of the lettering. Will, you were doing all of the screen printing. So did it stay like that for a long time? Or what were the, some of the steps that you took to like help? Maybe automate that or outsource that to really start to grow your product line.

Kassners: 20:06

We don't even have kids t shirts anymore, after the shirts, it kind of started evolving into paper products. we made like scripture cards for kids. That's because that's something I wanted for our own kids. So that was like Outsourcing, finding a printer was so stressful if y'all have ever had to do that, especially for like the specific kind of like cards I was making. I wanted like a whole set of like 52 cards and so that was difficult, but like once we got that it made our life so much easier. Just like having them printed and sent to us and then we ship them out. Eventually we did take away shirts and just focus solely on paper products. And so again, that cut down a lot on our, production time as far as like creating the actual products. Um, there was still a lot of time that went into designing them with the hand lettering. And by this time we had a procreate. And so that has made a huge difference. That was around the time that we'll started working for the business full time because I was the only one designing. So we kind of saw like, if I don't have more time to commit to the business, then. And we're going to kind of be stuck in this like cycle of I don't ever have enough time. And then he's always away like at work full time. And so finally we made the decision for him to quit his job where he was. So that would give us both more time to put into the business. So it almost like felt. Like we were making, not like a bad decision, but it was scary. Cause you know, you do have to just kind of like take a leap and just do it. It's a huge risk and hope it works So that was like December, 2019 and then COVID happened and we were like, Oh no, this is not good. We chose poorly. Yeah. Like that was a couple of months later and we were, but 2020 ended up being like our biggest year of business to date. So it would, it was a blessing that it happened the way it did. Um, and 2020 is when we hired our first employee. So It It worked out. Thank goodness.

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 22:27

I'm really curious how, I mean, it sounds like you really kind of just learn as you went, you know, you every single step of the way, you know, you taught yourself the calligraphy, how to digitize, how to create products, everything. Um, what were some of the key. Like steps that you took to learn how to build a product based businesses. Elaine and I don't really have that experience ourselves. And we know that our listeners, some of them do want to have like home goods, businesses, and calligraphy product businesses. So tell us a little bit about like, what helped you build up that part of your business and grow it.

Kassners: 23:03

Like you said, I just kind of figured it out as I went and like researched everything to death. Like Google, Google, Google, I read a lot of reviews. I remember I was trying to get into like art licensing and there is nothing on the internet. I can't, I remember not ever being able to find anything because I couldn't figure out how it worked or how you got into that world. I think I found, uh, an artist on Instagram and who was doing art licensing and kind of like went backwards from there because at one point she shared who she worked with or who her art agents were. And then I kind of reached out to them and, was a whole other, like, world as far as with lettering and calligraphy that, Was opened up once I found like an art licensing agent who kind of Sent things to me like they still send things to me. They say like here's our design trends for next season This is these are the colors that people are looking for. These are here's some quotes Sometimes they would give me quotes and then if I have time which Normally I don't right now, but I can submit things. And if the buyers like it, then they'll purchase it and then it'll be put in a store. So I've only done it once to where they have, accepted it and that, that art went into Kirkland's. So that was fun. Yeah. So again, it's just like everything is figureoutable. I remember, I used to follow. Kristen Lay, I think is her last name, L E Y. Her business is called Thimble Press, and at one point she was selling a PDF of like basically every supplier she's ever used for any kind of product. She makes a lot of like party goods, but she does do calligraphy and hand lettering too. And so, I remember talking to Will about like, I really think, This will be good. Like it'll be worth the investment of purchasing it. And so I did and was able to find who she uses overseas for like creating journals and paper products. And then we still use him today. So, some things, you know, you have to pay for some things. You can find out like being an internet sleuth, you know,

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 25:27

we, we talk a lot about that of just like kind of weighing the investment costs versus the time cost. And sometimes you can spend the time to really dive into something and figure it out. And sometimes it's maybe a better business decision to make that, you know, monetary investment upfront so that it can just help you get to the next step a little bit quicker than it would have taken you on your

Kassners: 25:51

Yeah. And even like the time it takes to find somebody to manufacture things, you could find somebody and then they're just a terrible manufacturer and then you're just like out of money. You've wasted a bunch of time because they're not ideal to work with or whatever it might be. Looking back. I was glad that we ended up. Purchasing that like list from her of all those manufacturers. Yeah. The way our business has grown because either a, uh, thing like that, that somebody offered to sell or people that were just willing to help us, like getting into the product world. That was a huge part like our friend that said make t shirts We got another friend named joe that taught us how to make t shirts And so I think it's it's knowing what you're after and then finding people that do it really well and kind of like It's okay to ask You know somebody and be like, hey, can you like will you teach me this or like will you show me more or i'm interested?, is there anything that you have to offer? But that like along the lines of like creating Products like the tangibility side of it. I would add that that I think sometimes when you look at creating products from the business standpoint, it's just like, Oh, how do I, what can I make that somebody is going to buy? but like when you're in the business world, You need to think about selling a feeling more than a product. Like, what are you going to produce one that's, that's unique, but also that somebody sees or holds and like, they, like, they feel your, your energy and your passion through that product. Cause I know like, there's been a couple of things we've come out with and hadn't done very well. And yeah, it's like, uh, we, like, maybe we didn't put like all of our, like all of our energy, you just kind of like throw something together and put it out there and see what happens. But I think, I think that like really in the, especially like the 2024 post COVID world, like for like product based things and art based things, people are really looking for and kind of desiring things that I. Allow them to feel Like in a deeper way, so I don't know. I would I would just kind of throw that out there as for people who are thinking about what what to make or how to make it like Do do something you love to do and do it. Well, find people to help you and don't be afraid to, to grit and grind in the early days. Yeah.

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 28:30

us about what products you're currently selling? And like, I love that idea of the products should elicit like a feeling. Can you tell us a little bit about how you create products that make people feel?

Kassners: 28:43

Yeah. So almost all, or probably all of our products are very colorful, like abstract looking backgrounds. A couple of times, I've made neutral colored things. Yeah. For the neutral lovers. That's not me, but I tried, I created it and it just didn't sell and I think people just expect the colorful things from us. So, when I did do neutral, even though I thought, like, that's what the people want, it just did not work out. So, um, Um,, like I said before, we have a lot of, scripture cards and paper products. We have, several sets of encouragement cards for people who are, like, struggling with anxiety or going through, like, pregnancy loss or grief. we just want to be a source of encouragement for people and set, like, products that you think of, like, when somebody is going through those things and you don't really know what to say. maybe we'll think of like our business and that's just something that you can send them to encourage them. Yeah, I would say, especially with our, with our new book, Abundant Grace, shout out to the new book that that kind of, it like culminates, like all of the parts of our business kind of into one. So you've got like the color. The, the hand lettering, the, like the encouraging writing and it's just, I don't know. I feel like it's like a crew and co bomb explosion, but like a good kind where,

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 30:07

copies with us if for our viewers on video so they can see exactly what they're talking about. It is so beautiful. You guys did amazing.

Kassners: 30:19

Thank you. This was like, this was before I came on full time, but we started post like the Instagram posting and figuring out, you know, you got to figure out your feed and your flow and like, you know, how you want it to look and all that stuff. And so one of the early things we wanted to do was to like, to not always sell something, but just to offer a space to be like just to Share truth or spread joy. And so from that led to Us writing our devotion daily devotion post. And so I think we do Two or three two or three a week Between two and five. We used to do like five a week. It's a little less nowadays. But so so we're a christian company and so it's it's all just kind of like You Taking a step back from us trying to sell you a product, just to say like, Hey, here's some encouraging words that we'd like to offer you from a, like a story that's real in our lives. And so the book really kind of culminates all of that to where it's, it's like practical stories where when you read it, You feel it because you've been in a similar situation. Like it's not, it's not like a, like a, a textbook kind of read. Like it's very, it's a very like personal applicable kind of thing. And then there's, like action, action points at the end that just tie that into practical living. And so it all goes back to like our feeling behind the business that we really want to sell. Is joy like we've we've always felt that we've I tried to express that through the colors, through the style of Courtney's writing, I almost said through Courtney's fonts, but I said, I said, no, no. I talked to him about that as well. Uh, through, but you know, like, so that all, like all the things that we're putting out, like it's, it has that feeling of tremendous joy in just everyday living. And so, It's just kind of cool to see that come out as a book. It's kind of like this culmination of like what we originally offered as just a place where you could read something and feel good. And now like it's in book form and it's, it's coming out to the world. I don't know. It's just, it's just wild that I got, we would have never expected to have a book or a successful business, but you know, through, through those years of hard work and just like truly, I think truly just trying to like, bring into the world something that we care about. I think that is like really kind of a big part of what a successful business, like can fall back on is like, is it something that you're like truly passionate to to show other people?

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 33:09

Yeah, absolutely. I feel like your story is such a testament to leading with your values. And keeping those at the forefront of everything that you're doing, making decisions, business decisions based on that, and then also just staying true to yourself the whole time. Like, I mean, like Courtney, you said, like you tried the neutral color, like it didn't work because that's just not who you are. Right. So staying true to yourself, your creative side. It also sounds like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but. Were some of your product decisions. So like when, as you're creating and you're trying to decide what it is that you want to turn into a product, do you base that decision as well on like, You're looking for something specific in the market that just isn't there. So like, you know, your book, for example, abundant grace, like I feel like this probably fills some sort of a space in the market that you weren't seeing for yourselves and that you guys were looking for and thought, maybe this is also going to benefit somebody else. Like maybe other people are looking for a book like this to just help them walk through

Kassners: 34:14

Yeah. I think from the very beginning, it was like that, like even with the shirts and our friend encouraging to start making shirts, nobody was using like hand lettering for their screen printed, like kids shirts, it was all font based. And so I thought that like, that's something different. And then when we made, like scripture cards for two year old at the time, that was because I didn't like anything and I'm a font snob, so I didn't. I could not find anything that was quote unquote, like good enough. So I just made something I liked myself. And so I think everything has kind of evolved from something that we wanted for ourselves that we couldn't find on the market or that we wanted for our kids or that we were hearing people say like, Hey, could you make something like this? Or, um, I want, I don't know this specific product made, but they wanted it colorful or whatever it might be. I think it all stemmed from things that, we wanted or needed for our own family that we couldn't find, you know, on Amazon or from any other business.

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 35:20

I love that. It's like the saying, create what you want to see in the world. And that's exactly what you guys have been doing. I really want to talk more about your books. I know that you, this is your second book that is coming out. You're for, actually by the time this podcast is published,

Kassners: 35:36

Yep.

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 35:37

will already be out. Um,

Kassners: 35:38

Oh

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 35:42

Up, and this is your second book, Abundant Grace. We have never gone through the process of publishing a book before, although Fun Faculane used to work for Penguin Random House, so she has some experience. Can you tell us a little bit about what the process was like publishing two books?

Kassners: 36:00

Yeah, so, obviously, like, especially with the first book, we had no idea what we were in for. We had no idea how long it would take, which it's, I think, for both, it's been, from start to finish, about two years. Just from, like, when you first start talking, or pitching, or whatever. So that was the biggest shocker is like it takes so long and I am such a last minute person Even with our own products like if I think of something last minute for like this specific season or holiday coming up Yeah, I I gotta make it right then like november 1st. We'll be coming out with our product So this has been a good test in my patience is this whole process of like just slowing down like planning There's lots of planning, we submitted our, uh, book proposal through our agent, and so from there, we heard back from a couple different publishers who were potentially interested and we got to talk to them and, like, hear what they had to say. And, how they thought our book could look and, uh, the potential for it. So that was exciting. First of all. Yeah, that's like the really fun part of the process is like the early, the early phase when everything feels new and like super fresh and exciting. So like you're pitching your manuscript, publishers are coming back and saying like, Oh, this is how we, this is how we envision it. And that's like the, that's like the heart, the heart pounding. Part. So from there, we got to, choose who we thought like we would work best with. And so we chose, for this book, ink and willow, which is, I don't know, Elaine, you could probably say it's like under penguin, a subsidiary. is that

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 37:47

Yeah. We would call it like an imprint.

Kassners: 37:50

In print.

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 37:51

House is the overarching company. And then there are divisions

Kassners: 37:54

Yeah.

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 37:54

And then there are

Kassners: 37:55

Yeah. Okay. There's cause it goes like the gift book division. Yeah. Anyways, we really enjoyed speaking with them. And so like we wanted to work with, uh, Incan Willow. And so from there, Will did the writing. So he does the writing and I do the art side. So the art usually comes later after. Yeah. So we'll went through the strenuous process of editing and. Back and forth with, uh, the editor there. And I mean, that's over like months, months. And I like editors have, I feel like editors have one of the hardest jobs in the world, because the thing about writers is they feel really good about their stuff. And then the editor's gotta be like, Hmm. Uh, so like, it's always such a, with, with both books, when the world wakes up being a kid's book, which is a little different of a, like an editing process because. The kid's book just, you know, it rhymes, and there's a lot less words, but the, the devotion book, you know, it's, you're just, it's a different, it's a different style. It's a different technique, but both times, like you're, you're getting, you're getting edits that you didn't expect. And it's such a, like, it's such a good process because you realize it's hard to realize like your own weaknesses or where. Somebody else actually like has a better idea than you did and you're like, oh, it's like you kind of got it. Like you kind of got to wrestle with that and like, You gotta you gotta choose your battles like oh, I really I really do like this one part that sounds weird but where you said to change this that's a really good point. And so I as the editing process, I think I would say it's it's uh, strenuous, but it's also really It's really fruitful because the end product That comes out I mean i'm talking about truly is so much better than like You What you first submit. And so it's cool how, again, like people helping you, it really makes a big difference. Yeah

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 39:57

because you can't see your own blind spots,

Kassners: 39:59

Oh yeah. You're like, Oh, this is wonderful. that after it, then you're like, Oh, that actually, it's not great. So yeah. Yeah.

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 40:07

So, um, I'm curious when you are pitching your manuscript, what exactly are you pitching? Are you pitching the idea or do you have parts of the book already written at that point? Yeah,

Kassners: 40:20

the, the full, the full story, the full rhyming ensemble. I think with especially kids books, if you, it's hard to pitch those as just an idea because they are shorter, it's, it's easier to just be like, Hey, here it is. What's the thing. The, the devotion book. Yeah, so we, we presented it as, like I'm doing the art and the lettering and he's doing the writing, like, that's not normal. So we, um, formatted something to where it was like a side by side of the art with the writing. So I think we did like. Five to 10 sample pages of what that would look like and sent that to our agent. And then that's what he used to pitch. Just so people could get an idea of exactly what it was. Like we had a very specific vision in mind with, using my art and that colorful stuff, um, so that helped a lot, but I think typically you would just have, you know, a portion of the writing. Um, typed out or whatever, but we did format it just so, you know, it helps to see visually what you're going for. Yes. And also I think it probably has, depends quite a bit on the agent because they're the one that like initially grabs the publisher's attention. And so for, for us, we've always submitted what our agent has requested us. To submit and so there's been several there's been several submissions that we've submitted to our agent That have not been published You know that they're just out there and no man's land because you submit things and you're like, hey Hey, this is a great idea for our next book. And then our agent will reply and be like Hello, you know, we talked about this with our our within our office and It is not a good idea. You know? So like, it's Yeah, yeah. I said that. He said like, let's just wait. Yeah. Like, but, but it's, it's a lot nicer than what you made it seem. No. Like, hey, shout out Agent Andrew, because he's the best in the world. But it, it's cool how that, like, there's such a, it's such a tiered process, you know, like from us. We submit to our agent and then if our agent's like, yeah, we're gonna like we can run with this This is gonna be good. Then he goes to the publisher and the publishers coming back and forth. It's yeah, it's really fun But there is I'm skipping ahead from that fast forward from because I know that y'all will relate to this and I need some like validation, uh so when we got to the point of like designing the cover and all the fonts inside like I felt like I was being a big nuisance to the publisher. Cause I was like, no, I don't like that font. No, please don't like, I'm just particular. And I, and again, I know most authors aren't like that because that's just not their wheelhouse. But being somebody who's been involved with hand lettering and calligraphy for so long, it's just like, I am particular.

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 43:22

Right. But at the end of the day, you're putting out your book and you want to feel really proud of it and good about the final product. So it's

Kassners: 43:30

Yes.

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 43:32

a, dance that goes on, right? It's like. Dealing with the publishing company and what their suggestions are and taking their feedback because they are in the book business, they know what they're doing, but also honoring what, you know, you really are feeling and believing and how to like advocate

Kassners: 43:50

Yeah. And even like, again, we're still, we are such newbies in like a publishing and book world. I didn't know how much say we had in that versus like. When they're just going to be like, no, this is what we're doing kind of thing. So I was just like, Oh, but they've been, they've been great. Both publishing companies have been incredible to work with. Maybe in particular about like, I'd, I'd please don't use that script font. Like, can I just write it and send it to you instead? Kind of thing. I'm like, Oh,

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 44:20

the outcome ended up being really incredible.

Kassners: 44:23

it turned, it turned

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 44:24

hard work paid

Kassners: 44:25

for sure.

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 44:26

So how does it feel like holding the book in your hand, you know, after

Kassners: 44:31

surreal. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's really weird. Uh, that's how I would explain it. Cause like when we talked about like the heart pounding part of the book process with like the early stage. And then fast forward to now and it's been almost two years and so like there's so much time that goes by when you do get the book you're like Wait, did we do this? The time from like when we submit like Finally push submit on like all the art all the writing To now has been so long for them to, you know, finish the design of the book and get it ordered and made and yeah, in hand, it takes so long that it is such a surreal feeling like, wait, like you, you don't forget about it, but it's like, Oh, so much hard work went into this, all, all that editing, it kind of makes you want to cry a little bit, just like me, I mean, it really, it, it, it's kind of, it's like the, like the whole entrepreneur, you know, It's a wild journey is for so long, it feels like the thing you're working so hard on is just going nowhere. And then all of a sudden they're like getting a little traction. You're like, Oh wait, like there's actually good things coming out of this.

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 45:42

Can you tell us a little bit? I know your book comes out on April 2nd,

Kassners: 45:47

Yes. April 2nd.

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 45:48

And can you share with us like where it's available? Is it everywhere? Books are sold

Kassners: 45:53

Yes. So, um, as far as online, it's everywhere book sold. So whatever your favorite book retailer is, it's, I think it's there. So that's it. Yeah. That's also exciting. Barnes and Noble, Amazon. You can buy it at crewandco. com.

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 46:09

We're also doing a super fun giveaway for our listeners, which is also going to give them an opportunity to get. Your book and we're giving away three copies of Abundant Grace plus store credit to crew and co very generous of you guys. Thank you. Um, we will have an Instagram post up at calligraphy biz corner with all of the details on how to enter. So if you're listening to this episode, the week it comes out, which will be on April 16th, make sure that you head over to our Instagram and check that giveaway post for all those details. we've covered so much good stuff today, just to kind of wrap up, if our listeners want to connect with you, you know, check out your stuff, where can they find you?

Kassners: 46:54

Mostly on instagram at crew and co so it's all one word c r e w a n d c o or crew and co. com Uh, we're on tiktok here and there for now unless it gets banned, man I'm nervous. Okay, we're on facebook same same handle. So yeah all those so yeah, check it out. It's going to be a great book. Abundant grace. It's all about finding God's grace in the everyday living life. Yep. Into that giveaway. It's going to be good.

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 47:34

Well, Courtney and Will, this was an amazing conversation. I know that our listeners are going to have so many good takeaways from this. So thank you so much for just being with us today, sharing your time, sharing all of your wisdom and congratulations on your new

Kassners: 47:48

Thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks for having us. It was so fun to talk about all of our calligraphy days and how that led us to where we are now. Yeah. So thanks for having us. Yeah. Keep up the good work out there,

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 48:02

We got a lot of good stuff

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 48:04

Yeah, I was going to say, is there anything else that you guys want to chat about

Kassners: 48:09

Hey, we're about to open up a coffee shop.

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 48:11

like,

Kassners: 48:12

So like if you got people,

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 48:14

what's the timeline for the coffee shop? Where can people find it when it does open?

Kassners: 48:18

TBD. Yeah, we're, we're really hoping for sometime this summer. but we've had our crew and co headquarters for what? Three years now. And so we're converting like the front half of the building into retail and, Java juice and then the back the back half will be like our works workspace. Yeah So we're we're like 30 minutes outside of memphis in mississippi a short drive short drive from downtown

shaochen_1_03-20-2024_113855: 48:46

we're

alane_1_03-20-2024_133855: 48:47

sounds incredible. We're going to have to come out

Kassners: 48:48

Absolutely hey if y'all ever want to do a calligraphy workshop we could do it i'll make i'll make the coffee