6. Forging Unique Paths to Full-Time: Stories from Calligraphers Who Have Done It

Alane: 0:32

Welcome back to another episode of calligraphy biz corner. We are so excited today because we have our first ever guest episode and we're bringing you not one, not two, but three conversations from different calligraphers in our community. So as we brainstormed ideas, we thought it would be fun to highlight various paths to being a full time calligrapher. We know that that's not necessarily everybody's dream or goal in their business, but our goal with this episode is to really just show that there are many different ways. That you can get there and that full time looks different for everyone. So if you are interested in taking your business full time, know that there's no one size fits all approach. We hope that these stories inspire you to see the potential that's out there. And should full time be a dream of yours. Hopefully you get some great advice from these calligraphers who have taken that leap.

Shaochen: 1:27

A little bit about today's episode. Um, When we say full time, we're defining that as calligraphy being the sole source of income, and we have previously sent a survey to each of these calligraphers to hear more about their journeys. So you may hear us reference like a form or a survey when we're talking through these interviews. So the three calligraphers we're going to hear from today are all at different stages of their business and their life. We've got Hannah of Tally Mark Calligraphy, Danny of Paper Cliché, and Alice of Pen by Alice. So without further ado, let's jump into the interviews. I have my first interview guest today. I have Hannah of Talenmark Calligraphy. She's based in Las Vegas, Nevada, and she's been in business for four years and went full time in October, 2022. So she's been full time for, I think, just around a year and a half.

Hannah: 2:25

Yeah.

Shaochen: 2:26

and her business provides live calligraphy, wedding calligraphy, signage, and then she also does corporate signage and murals. So welcome to calligraphy biz corner, Hannah.

Hannah: 2:37

Thank you, I'm happy to be here.

Shaochen: 2:39

Let's start by, sharing a little bit about how you found calligraphy. Oh,

Hannah: 2:46

bit. I've always been drawn to lettering and letters when I was in grade school. I'd always doodle in the margins of my notes, like bubble letters, and just, um, letter shapes and all that kind of stuff. And when I was in grad school, My mom is an artist and she had sent me a care package and put a lot of her old calligraphy stuff in it and was like, Hey, I think you'd really like this. Give it a try. So I did, and it just became a really great creative outlet for me, while I was in school. And so just self taught, just played around with different tools, different nibs, different. brush pens, figured out what I liked.

Shaochen: 3:19

You said that was around like 2013, right?

Hannah: 3:22

so that was in 2013. Um, so yeah, I've been doing calligraphy, I guess, for about 10 years. And then, I realized a lot of people wanted me to do prints and place cards and, uh, they wanted to pay me to do it. And I was like, this is kind of fun.

Shaochen: 3:38

Yeah. Um, So, yeah. that was like 10 years ago, like you

hannah-holt--she-her-_1_03-06-2024_123614: 3:43

So

Shaochen: 3:43

And then you went full time in 2022. So, kind of what happened along that journey that made you decide you wanted to make calligraphy your primary source of income? Because obviously at that time you were doing something else, right?

Hannah: 3:59

Yeah. it was a massive shift, um, and not something I ever anticipated happening. I never wanted to be an entrepreneur. I wanted to work for someone my whole life. I was like this, I'm not trying to work that hard. I don't want to, you know. Create my own business sounds like a lot of work. I'll just get my paycheck and go home. Um, and so that was always the plan. And so, I went to school to be an athletic trainer, that was always the plan to stay as an athletic trainer. Um, and I ended up moving out to Las Vegas to work for Cirque du Soleil. So I was on their medical staff for six years. And 2020 happened and because we're entertainment, we were all furloughed for a year and a half. So I was left without a job for a very long time. Um, So I had a lot of free time on my hands. So I was still doing calligraphy at that time. And figured, you know, why don't I try out this business side of it? Let me see if I like it, see what it looks like. Turns out I love it. You know, I really like building a business from the bottom. Um, so during 2020, I, uh, just started building up tally mark calligraphy and I started to take it a little bit more seriously, something more than a hobby. at that point it was never meant to be more than a side hustle. I still wanted to go back to my job at Cirque, still wanted to be an athletic trainer, spend all that money and time going to school for it. So, I had no plans to leave., and then we came back. In 2021. And it was easily one of the hardest years of my career as an athlete, a trainer,, just managing all the COVID stuff. I was training a new staff member. I felt like every month we had, it was just a major workload. and I started to get more work as a calligrapher, particularly on site, and a lot of those jobs are often nights and weekends, which is when shows are,

Shaochen: 5:40

Right.

hannah-holt--she-her-_1_03-06-2024_123614: 5:40

Bring that

Shaochen: 5:41

in two places at once.

Hannah: 5:43

Exactly. Yeah. So I had to turn down a lot of that work, and I just didn't want to anymore. So, you know, the, the search job was getting to be really demanding, and I was turning down work that I wanted to be doing. So I guess it was around end of 2021, beginning of 2022 that I decided to prepare to go full time by the end of the year.

Shaochen: 6:03

And I remember that in your survey, you had also mentioned that like, it was starting to get really hard balancing your schedule with your husband and getting them to align because you're both in entertainment. Can you just talk a little bit about how that played into your decision to take calligraphy full time?

Hannah: 6:22

Yeah. So my husband and I met, at the circus. Uh, he's an acrobat and, he's been on a couple of shows here in Vegas, but now he's a freelancer. So he does a lot of gig work. Um, does a lot of traveling for a lot of traveling international. So he's gone for, you know, a week to a month at a time, depending on what he's doing. With Cirque, my schedule is dictated by the show. So when the show is off, I am off. I get four weeks guaranteed off every year, which is awesome, and not something you always get. Uh, but I don't get to decide when those weeks are. So I'll get my calendar for the year, and I know when my vacations are. But because my husband's a freelancer, if a job comes up, he doesn't often turn it down. So a lot of times those jobs would coincide with my vacation. And then my time off, we wouldn't actually get to spend time off together. So he was with the shows until 2021. And then 2022, he was freelancing. And recovering from an injury. It was a whole year. Um, and just realized that, like, a lot of our time, we didn't get to spend a whole lot of time together. And so that was a really big, catalyst to being like, look, we're not building the life that we want to be building. We don't get to spend time together. If and when we have kids, who knows what that schedule is even going to look like if I'm bound to the show. Um, so decided to take that leap into both of us doing self employment just so that we could start scheduling that time off and actually build the life that we want to have together.

Shaochen: 7:44

Yeah, I love that. Now you have so much more control over your own schedule and the flexibility and you're not like ships, ships in the night anymore.

Hannah: 7:53

our families are, you know, my family's in Maryland, his family's in Texas. We live in Las Vegas. And so it requires, you know, we travel a lot to see family. And so it really opens up a lot of free time to be able to see each other, but also to see our friends and families too.

Shaochen: 8:11

Yeah, so one of the things that you mentioned that really resonated with me was that there was this huge identity shift that you went through when you kind of let go of your previous career. And I really resonate with that because I, in my previous career, I was going for it. Right. Right. really competitive jobs that had, you know, intense interviews and spent years climbing the corporate ladder to kind of get to where I was. And so same thing when I left all that behind to be a solopreneur, it was, it was like really reshaping who I was kind of at the core. So I wanted to talk a little bit about that, like what that was like for you and kind of how you. found your new identity.

Hannah: 9:00

Totally. Uh, yeah, it was a massive shift. So I, as an athletic trainer, worked in the medical field, went to school for six years, um, and it really became, you know, who I was, it was my job. And then when I get a job with Cirque du Soleil, a very cool job, a very cool company, um that just like added another layer of like, I'm leaving this very cool job to go be a small business owner and artist, which is also amazing, but it's a completely different shift. Even as I was preparing to become full time artist, you know, I started to change my answer when people asked me what I did, practicing leading with an artist. I'm an artist, calligrapher, small business owner. Um, so that definitely helped shift that a little bit. But it's. It's really hard when you say, oh, I work for Cirque du Soleil and everyone's like, what? That's amazing. And I was like, what am I doing? Why am I leaving this? And so I think that was one of the major shifts for me, it's just a mindset of like. Yeah, it sounds very cool, but people don't know how demanding it was. It didn't suit my lifestyle at the time for this season. Um, and my mom was actually super helpful when I was talking to her about it. I was like, it just feels, you know, you know, I've been athletic training for 10 years now. What do I, what am I doing? Why am I shifting? She's like, I mean, you told me when you were in college that you didn't want the same career forever. She's like, you wanted lots of careers. And I was like, huh, you're right. Yeah, mom. Thanks for that. So it was great to get that reminder of like. We don't have to be one thing forever. And just because we're leaving one thing behind doesn't mean that it wasn't good or what we're moving to isn't as good. It's just a different time for a different season and everything serves its purpose for a time in your life.

Shaochen: 10:43

I love that. I, I totally just got goosebumps. I also believe in just new beginnings, reinventing yourself, or just like having chapters of your life that, like you said, you serve you for a while and then you move on. There's always going to be, like, this shift and this, like, discomfort behind it, but it could end up being something that's, like, so much better for you, for where you are. And, like, how boring would it be if we just did the same thing for our entire lives? You know, like, I can't imagine doing the same thing for, like, decades and decades, and this might not, probably won't be the thing that I do for the rest of my life either, you know?

Hannah: 11:19

Yeah.

Shaochen: 11:20

Yeah, so. I love that. Since I know a lot of our listeners are side hustlers or maybe thinking about going full time at some point, I wanted to talk a little bit about like the investments that you've made in yourself and your business. Cause I know you've joined a couple of different programs, including my per wedding calligrapher course, and you've done a mentorship session with Elaine. So I kind of wanted to see. Um, you know, talk a little bit more about like the role that these programs played in your business. Did they help you launch your business? Did they help you prepare to go full time? Like just share a little bit with our listeners about how, how, um, the investments helped you. Right.

Hannah: 12:04

important to invest in yourself. It's the best money I've ever spent. Um, there are three major programs that I invested in, at different points of my business and where I was and where I was going. So the first one I was, was your course, the pro wedding calligraphy course. Um, the second one I did was the craft Academy with Rosie Chan. And then the third one was the one on one mentoring with Elaine. When I'm looking at things that I want to invest in and courses, I want to take, um, I want to number one, find somebody who's doing what I want to be doing. And so when I was first starting out of my business, I was trying to figure out what I wanted to be doing, what services I wanted to offer. Um, Las Vegas being the wedding capital of the world. I was like, let's start there. Let's, you know, see what kind of weddings we have here. Calligraphy is a luxury service. And so, you know, you need to find the people who have the budget for it. Um, and you were working with those kinds of clients and the course that you're offering looked like exactly what I wanted to be learning from. And so that was super helpful in. Getting me into the wedding business and, first and foremost, connecting with, um, the planners that, connect with me, connect with the work that I'm doing, understand what I'm doing, and then gave a ton of framework for, you know, pricing and budget planning, income planning. And what I really liked about the three courses I've invested in, it's you give the framework and then it's like. Take it and run with it. Like here's what's worked for me. Here's what's been really good, but this is not a blueprint. This is not a script. Your location is going to be different. Your industry, your market, your client base, all that's going to be, that's not the same as what you are doing in Denver. So like, you know, you just got to take what you, what you have learned and then apply it to my, okay. Industry, um, which was like massively helpful. And so it really helped me solidify, how to approach the wedding business and wedding clients, how to get more high end luxury based, couples. So that was like really helpful at the beginning of that, while I was trying to figure out what services to offer.

Shaochen: 14:03

I'm so happy you say that because that really is my goal as an educator is like, teach you how to fish, not what's that saying? Like teach a man how to fish rather than like.

Hannah: 14:14

for a day, teach them how to fish, for life.

Shaochen: 14:16

There you go. Exactly. That's it. So it's really more about like giving you the tools that you can use to apply to various different scenarios rather than giving you the answer. Like, that's always how I think about it. So when someone asks me, like, even in our, um, community Facebook group for the course, like, how do I price this thing? I always try to think through, I always try to lay out, here are the factors that I would consider rather than like charge. 50 for it. You know, like that's just not as helpful.

Hannah: 14:45

It's

Shaochen: 14:46

So I'm really glad that that was, that helped you, um, with the framework and get your business off the ground.

Hannah: 14:52

totally. And I think trial and error is so important when you're like becoming a business, like it's helpful to have the information, but like. Some of the best learning I've ever had is through failure. And so like, I want to try something. It doesn't work. Awesome. Now I know how to shift. Now I know how to pivot and like having that framework and having the tools of that really helps you do that and like avoid hours of Googling, you know what I mean? So like you, you just kind of cuts it down. It doesn't remove any failure. It doesn't remove any trial and error. It just kind of cuts down the like. The guess, the guesswork,

Shaochen: 15:23

yeah. That's a, that's such a good mindset to have. It like helps you stay resilient, helps you not get discouraged and really be like the scientists in your business. Um, so tell us a little bit about the other investments and how did you think about those as you were continuing on your journey?

Hannah: 15:39

Yeah. So the second I invested in was the Craft Academy with Rosie Chen, the Wander Crafter. and that one I did right before I went full time. She's very based in live calligraphy and engraving, uh, which I learned was a bit of a bigger market here in Vegas. Vegas is the wedding capital of the world, but it's also very cheap to get married here. So budgets are not always as high as you want them to be. So fortunately, I have found some amazing planners who get and trust what I'm doing, and so I work with them. Um, but I found that the live calligraphy industry is much bigger here. So I wanted to explore that a little bit, figure out how to pitch myself and connect with people a bit better. She also does a little bit more work on like, Establishing the business, kind of like setting up your website, SEO, a little bit more than the nitty gritty admin stuff. So I invest in that and that really helped me get a, get a bunch of my ducks in a row as I was leaning into going full time. And I think two of my favorite part, like one of my favorite parts from both of these, was having the community there, I think one of the. Hardest part is that as you're doing things, you're like, is this what everybody else is doing? Like, is this what the industry expects? You know what I mean? Like, am I being crazy? And you, it's great soundboard to have the community both with the Pro Wedding Calligraphy course, um, and the Craft Academy. Just to have people like, Hey, do you send a contract every time you do a project or just for the big ones? or Hey, do you show up at a table or not? Like, so just,

Shaochen: 17:01

gut check. table. or no table. Right. Love

Hannah: 17:06

exactly. It's like, this doesn't seem crazy, but I kind of feel like I don't want to look weird if I do it. Like, so it's nice to have that like industry gut check a little bit of like, you don't want to be doing what everyone else is doing, but like. You want to make sure that you're like upholding an industry standard in a bit, in a, in a way. Um, and so that was really helpful as I was going into being full time, to kind of like set some things up so that when I left my full time job, I could hit the ground running and knew that I would have some jobs in place

Shaochen: 17:35

that.

Hannah: 17:36

Yeah. And then the third thing was Elaine's mentoring call. So I was like super excited when she started offering those. I did that after I went full time, and was really trying to hone my wedding process. Because of the types of couples that I work with here in Vegas, it's a lot of super high end. I work specifically with planners who have very strict processes and want vendors that have very good processes. And I felt like mine was still a little sticky. She's got like a ton of couples that are always like, your process was amazing. We had so much fun. And I'm like, I want that.

Shaochen: 18:06

Yeah.

Hannah: 18:08

So again, like finding someone who's doing what I want to be doing. Um, and so that was really helpful because it's one on one. and again like, Elaine did such a good job of like, Understanding what works for me and then helping me develop the tools for a process that works for me and my business, as opposed to saying, hey, this is my system. This is what you should do. So, uh, really taking what she understands from all of her learnings and trial and errors, and, applying it to like my, my workflows and like what my strengths and weaknesses as, you know, as you could say, um, with how I communicate with people and how I like to communicate with people, my clientele, all that kind of stuff. So that kind of helps me, you know, create some workflows and make my wedding process a little bit more clear, so that I could continue working with those high end planners that are looking for vendors that do that.

Shaochen: 18:57

Yeah, that's cool that you've really like targeted those very specific niches to that work for your region and your interests. That's really, really great advice for everybody thinking about like how to invest, what stage to invest in their business is like really looking for where you want to be focusing right now and who is doing that work so you can learn from them. I love that.

Hannah: 19:19

Yeah.

Shaochen: 19:20

So I guess that actually leads us into our last question, which is what's one piece of advice that you would give to a calligrapher who is considering going full time?

Hannah: 19:31

Um, I think the, the one thing that comes to mind immediately is keep your day job. So it was one of like the, for as long as you can, by all means, I want everyone to become full time and do what they love and support themselves with their art. Um, but I think when people see. Full time artists, they just almost see like an overnight success. They're like, well, they went full time. I could do full time. You 100 percent can. But the reason I was able to go full time is because I kept my day job for so long. I spent a year planning to go full time and a lot of that time was trial and error to figure out what kind of services I wanted to offer. So I could be very clear about that when I went full time. Um, it was saving money. It was putting away a buffer, a financial buffer in case I didn't make any money for a certain amount of months. Um, and then also planning what other expenses we're going to pop up now that I'm self employed. So because my husband's also self employed, we lose insurance.

Shaochen: 20:28

Yeah, that's a big one.

Hannah: 20:30

it's huge. Oh my gosh. We lost all of our benefits, insurance, 401k, retirement. Um, you also have to pay self employed tax, so you don't get to keep all of your revenue. Um, and so there was a lot of prep work on that. And having my day job be able to, pay the bills while I was figuring that all out was huge. I think if I had the pressure on my art and my business to make money immediately, My art would have suffered significantly. I think I've been, just trying to keep up with it. What I think knows, uh, makes money. So like when I'm looking around, I'm like, okay, well, they're making money. Maybe I should be doing that as opposed to like building up what makes me unique and what I bring to the table. And then that's what makes money. That's what, why people hire you. That's why you become successful is because you're. Unique to everyone else. Everyone has a very specific thing that they can bring, but I don't know that the pressure to make money would have allowed me to find out what that is.

Shaochen: 21:32

a great point. And then like you're, like you were saying, keeping your day job allowed you to do a lot of the trial and error you wanted to do to get to that answer or to find out more about what you wanted to do without having to worry about making money right away. As you first started business, you really can't expect to be making money right away.

Hannah: 21:53

Exactly. Yeah. It's just a lot of time. And does everyone need a year of prep? Well, probably not. Um, but don't underestimate the stability of a paycheck.

Shaochen: 22:02

yeah. That's great. We're talking about it right now because now we might be planting the seed for somebody else

Hannah: 22:08

Totally. I was going to say, start planning now.

Shaochen: 22:10

Right, exactly. Well, thank you so much, Hannah. That was incredible. I felt like we packed a lot into the short time that we had together. Thank you so much for sharing your story and all of your, stage advice.

Hannah: 22:23

No problem. I love talking about this stuff.

Alane: 22:28

So next up we have Danny of Paper Cliche. Danny is a calligrapher based in Costa Mesa, California. Am I saying that right? Costa Mesa? Okay. And she specializes in wedding stationery and day of details. And her work is absolutely stunning. Every time you post something, I'm like swooning at my phone, just looking at it cause it's so elegant, it's so beautiful. Um, and we'll definitely be sure to link your Instagram in the show notes. So other people can get inspired by you and your work. So Danny has been in business for seven years total. She was side hustling. For just over three years. And I, your story was so inspiring to read in our survey. I know that you were juggling four bartending shifts. You were transitioning to becoming a single mom after a divorce. So you had a lot going on.

Dani: 23:23

Yeah.

Alane: 23:24

And then you went full time in March, 2020, right? At the start of the pandemic. So talk about timing, right?

Dani: 23:32

Yeah, the universe had, uh, other plans for me.

Alane: 23:36

Yeah, it's funny how things sometimes just work out like that, right? Like. You're going, going, going. And then it's like, Nope, hang on. We're going to get you back on what is actually the right track.

Dani: 23:49

Yeah, I feel like that's a lot of my story. It's just like a good swift, like, kick in the butt of like, Nope, this is how it's gonna go.

Alane: 23:56

Well, we are super excited to have you on Calligraphy Biz Corner and can't wait for you to share your story. So without further ado, we would love to kick things off. Could you just tell us a little bit about how you found calligraphy?

Dani: 24:10

So. Um, I actually started with hand lettering, so I did a ton of, like, restaurant type work, like, huge menus and everything like that, but even before that, um, before I even knew that you could get paid for this kind of work, I was doing. Invitations and signage for all my friends and family. Like I was that cousin that would do your seating chart for free, you know, like back in like 2010. So I honestly had no idea that you could monetize it. And I, I like very vividly remember doing like, I was painting all my signage for my own wedding. I was, I hand lettered every single like address. Um, I like spent all my spare time doing, I like dove in and was just like, Oh my God, I love this. And I remember painting a sign on my patio and just being like, gosh, if someone could just pay me to do this, like my life would be so dreamy. And then I don't know, people started paying me and it was pretty crazy.

Alane: 25:05

Amazing. And I feel like it's so true. Like you don't realize. That people will pay for something or that people even need that service until like people start to ask you about it, right? Like or until you do it yourself and you're like, oh, yeah, there's this whole Industry of weddings that need this service and people value it and will pay somebody to do it because they can't do it themselves

Dani: 25:27

Exactly. It was so cool. It was such a cool realization. And then I remember like the way that I got into calligraphy, I had started like, you know, like the faux calligraphy and all that at that time, like back in like, I guess this was like 2015. And then in 2016 I had like a very trusting soul say like, I want you to make my wedding invitations. And I was like, okay, I'll figure it out. And so I taught myself calligraphy. It was like back when, um, like all the handmade paper that was like water, like ombre, like watercolor, like that was really popular. So I did every single one by hand. Every, I had no idea that you could print on handmade paper. So it was insanity.

Alane: 26:06

many was in that suite?

Dani: 26:09

I believe it was like a hundred save the dates. So I actually, I brush lettered the save the dates and then between the save the dates and the invitations, I taught myself calligraphy. Yeah it was it was wild.

Alane: 26:20

That's impressive

Dani: 26:22

I mean, they weren't great, but I mean, they were okay for like, first try. Yeah.

Alane: 26:34

you. And it's like, thank God that there are people like that in the world. Right. Because that's how we all get our start. Just somebody being like, okay, I'm going to take a chance on you.

Dani: 26:42

Totally, it's like a whole different, like, brand of trust to just be like, I have no portfolio and I can do this because I say I can.

Alane: 26:50

Right, exactly. And especially with something like as big as your wedding day, it's like, Yeah, she was so appreciative of those people in the early days.

Dani: 27:00

and I mean, like, like, I feel like there's all, like, there is a client for every level that you're at. So that's what's kind of awesome about it. You know. So, honestly, it was always the goal since I started it. I was like, you said, like, in the hospitality industry and had been, you know, since I was a kid. Coinciding in 2018 with my divorce, I had cut down to two shifts, and then I, in 2018, I cut down to one bartending shift, but it was kind of like my security blanket. Like, I wasn't ready to quite, like, let go of that. Um, my big, like, plan in my head was, to, stop in September, 2020 to stop bartending, but then like leading up, like I knew in 2019, like something had to give, because it was like the end of the year, I was like a hamster on a wheel. I was juggling too much and I wasn't able to put, you know, like, the actual, thought and intention into the business, but that's what I wanted. So, yeah, it was just a matter of just, you know. Looking at everything being tired all the time and just being like, okay, like, like, this is the thing that has to fall off, even though it's scary. And then obviously, we know March 2020 restaurants were no more. So

Alane: 28:21

Right. So how did that feel when COVID hit in March 2020 and like your decision was kind of Made for you what like six months before you were thinking of really taking that leap Like what was going through your head at that time?

Dani: 28:36

Well, in all honesty, I mean, all the weddings went away too. So it was probably like, you know, like a deep, like dark depression for about a month. Like, Oh shoot, like what am I going to do? But I mean that year, although it was terrifying for everybody, obviously it was Yeah. Yeah. It was that exact pause that I needed, like I was able to take a step back and instead of juggling 40 things, I was juggling zero things. So I was able to get intentional and I spent that entire year just like creating faux wedding invitations. I, I knew that I wanted to make something that was a little bit different than a lot that you see out there. I mean, sometimes it would like physically pain me to like design with clients that I wasn't aligned with. So I just, I honestly just like practice printing techniques. I practice just like really creating what I wanted to see. And then by 2021, I like put together my first brand shoot and like the professional photography. That is when I feel like my intentions aligned with what I was putting out into the world. So that was probably the biggest change for me.

Alane: 29:47

Yeah, I love that you used kovid like that pause in the whole world is also a pause for yourself to really like Reflect on what it is that you really love doing, what you really want, how you want to present yourself and your business to the world, what you want to be designing, the kind of people that you want to be working with. Like, I feel like when COVID hit, it was such a moment of panic for everyone. Right. We're all like, Oh my God, what are we going to do? I mean, I know I can speak for myself too, because I was full time with weddings by that time. And it was like.

squadcaster-dg4c_1_03-08-2024_090633: 30:17

Yeah.

Alane: 30:21

what is going to happen? And you're scrambling like, okay, well, what can I do? What kind of jobs can I take? How can I have money coming in? Because I need to pay my bills. And I love that instead of looking at it as. Something, dark or something to fear, like, of course, we all had our moment of panic, but it sounds like you really took it as an opportunity to be like, okay, well, what can I do with this? How can I use this time to benefit me? And it sounds like it just really helped you. Kind of spring forward to the next level in your business.

Dani: 30:54

Yeah, I really feel like it was. I mean, that pivotal like turn for me to where I started to run my business instead of my business running me, which like really was the way that it was prior, you know, like 2019, I was still doing huge 40 foot menus. I was doing murals. I was doing, I mean, basically anything that anybody was like, Oh, can you do this? I was like, sure, I'll figure that out. So, you know, It was still a lot of that, like 2018 and 2019. So that was the biggest change for me was like, okay, now this is exactly, I'm in a niche down, which, you know, like it takes a lot to do that when you love to do everything.

Alane: 31:31

I feel like your story is just such a testament of following what really lights you up and doing what you want to be doing and not focusing on what other people are doing. I am a firm believer that what you put out into the universe, you're going to get back. So I would just love to hear a little bit more of like how that manifested itself for you. Like as you started to design and print the wedding stationery that you actually wanted to be creating

Dani: 31:59

yeah, I mean, honestly, it's, it's strange for me because I feel like I'm a really like methodical, like logical person in most areas, but I remember, you know, people saying like, you need to get intentional, you need to have clarity. And I was like, what is that? But honestly, within a couple months of like sitting down, writing these things down, like doing the brand, obviously, like. Crazy amounts of work as well, but it was bizarre to me the trajectory of like okay doing the brand shoot I actually rebranded at the same time Which was straight it was like an Instagram giveaway. I got an entire brand and she was amazing, but it was all of these crazy huge things happening like all at once, I mean, that was January 2021. I had obviously put the work ahead of time, like in 2020, but within like a couple months of that and kind of just rebranding on Instagram and showing exactly what I wanted to do. Um. It was crazy. It was like within a couple months, just things started to take off. I mean, by April 2021, I was so busy that I had to hire a production assistant. It was a bizarre time to me because it felt like everything was happening so quickly. And I think people were obviously eager to get married because they had had this huge pause as well. So it was kind of a combination of all of those things. I think, you know, um, it was just. It was wild. 2021 was wild because I was like, learning to fly the plane as I took off and just, I mean, yeah

Alane: 33:28

like you also learn so much by just diving headfirst. And you're like, you know what? We're going to figure it out because we have to figure it out. And there's literally no choice right now.

Dani: 33:37

exactly. It was totally like that and like, all the shortages at the time too. So it was really, it was a huge learning curves, but it was fun.

Alane: 33:45

You really had your work cut out for you. That's for sure. How did you find that courage to kind of really just like stay in your lane and put your blinders up and be like, I'm only going to do things that really feel aligned with who I am, what I want my business to be, and where I know I want my business to go.

Dani: 34:04

I think a big trick was when I had a, like a, a decent amount of savings to where I felt like comfortable in making those choices, but I was also doing work that I didn't want to do still. I just wasn't posting it. And that was huge. Like, I think it was Jodi of Someday Art Co. I think she's changed her name now to just Jodi, but it, she said something that like really resonated and she was like, only post the work that you want more of. And I was like, Like, duh, like that, that's the trick right there, you know, like you still have to pay bills like you said. And I was, you know, I, amazingly I have so many like previous clients that in 2020 almost like made projects for me, like, you know, and that was so incredible that I wasn't posting that work. I was posting what I actually wanted to do.

Alane: 34:52

Yeah, no, I think that's such a good reminder because it is easy to want to post things that you're working on just to show that like you're working, you're relevant, you have clients. But if it's really not aligned with where you want to be and the kinds of jobs that you want to be taking on, I do think at the end of the day, it is doing you a bit of a disservice because people will, like when they come to your Instagram page, they're going to see, like, that is your portfolio these days, right? It's like you have a couple of seconds to catch somebody's attention. And if they see something on there that they're like, Oh my gosh, I really love this. But you're like, I don't want to do this, then you've just kind of screwed yourself. So I love that. Like, even though you were working behind the scenes, that you were really focusing on just posting and putting out there things that you a hundred percent stood behind. Right. Did any of that, like the work that you were posting, I'm just curious, was it for actual projects or were you also doing a lot of designing of just kind of like, you know, quote unquote fake clients, but because you knew you wanted to be hired for that kind of work, like kind of building your own art portfolio.

Dani: 36:02

Yeah. I mean, I feel like that first like big brand shoot that I did. Probably 75 percent of it was what I had created in 2020 and got ready and was like, these are the designs that That I want to put out there and I hadn't quite started my collection designs yet, but that was kind of like the birth of it of like trying to figure that whole world out. Um, but yeah, so it was a lot of just kind of just creating for myself or like what I wanted to create for clients

Alane: 36:29

It's such a good reminder though, because it's easy for us to be like Oh, we don't have work or we don't have the clients or we're not getting the clients that we want. And it's like, you literally have the power to create the work and the clients that you want, right. Like, you have the power to bring to life, whatever it is that you're dreaming and it's going to resonate with somebody and they're going to find you and be like, this is what I've been looking for.

Dani: 36:50

Yeah, and I think another huge aspect of it is that I think it's really important to screw up on your own projects and not on a client's project. So all of that, like all of the printing and all of those like trial and errors, like I did those on my own thing. So I was like, Oh, that does not work. Like this does not translate to print. This does not translate to this paper. Like. So I was learning all that, like, as I was doing that, and I feel like, I don't know, I feel like that's, like, a really, like, important part of the whole process, if you're able, you know, it is, it is an investment of your time, it's an investment of, you know, the, the printing costs, the paper costs, all of that, but, like, for me, it was totally worth it. Yeah,

Alane: 37:35

and the energy. Effort, et cetera, in up front to help you get to where you want to be that much quicker, right? Like it could have been a much slower process and maybe you wouldn't be where you are today if you hadn't really taken that time to go all in and like really focus on, honing your skill, honing your style, all of those things.

Dani: 37:58

Exactly, because you want to be able to offer the client a good experience, you know, so getting all of those, like, I mean, obviously like there are still issues that come up to this day, but it's like. I feel like that gave me the confidence to be like, okay, like I feel like I know what I'm doing so I can Offer like a high touch experience instead of just like, oh, I'll figure it, you know, like it's it it was really integral

Alane: 38:22

I just, I love your story so much. Like I said, you're just such a testament to doing the work, putting the energy out there and it all coming back to you, which is incredible. I would love to touch for a minute on. Hiring an assistant because I think that's something that either people aren't sure how to go about doing or don't know when the right time may be., and even just like finding the right person, right? Like, I feel like it can be very hard. To find somebody who fits your business, your brand. So if you could just talk a little bit about like expanding a team and what it was like to hire somebody, and if you have any tips or little tidbits to share.

Dani: 39:05

Yeah, I do. I have a few. I have a couple like, what not to do. And I know this is different for everyone, but my 1st assistant production assistant was actually a good friend of mine and, you know, in hindsight, I feel like, of course, it can work out. But I probably held on to a situation that, like, wasn't. An actual good fit for either of us, but I valued our friendship so much. So that kind of put my business last and that, you know, it just, it wasn't really good for anyone. So I would say either just don't hire a friend or make sure, you know, for her, it just wasn't, she, she didn't love it. And you know, in stationery, like you have to love it. Cause there's so, there are a lot of stressors involved or like a lot. And like, as we talked about, like it was getting really busy, really fast. So we were like. Creating systems as we went and I think, you know, that's just like a huge part of it. No one's going to love it as much as you do because it's your business. But I think like the same level of like drive, you know, like that's super important in finding someone. Um, I've since built like the most incredible team I have. an incredible like virtual assistant that helps me set up all my files. She's a calligrapher herself. She's fantastic. Um, Natalie of noteworthy co, then I have my production assistant who's in house with me and she's just, I mean, the, the difference in my business and being able to like, Not assist my assistant is, I mean, it's world changing, like it's been, it's been about a year and a half now of like this team put in place and it's just. I can't even say how amazing it is in words.

Alane: 40:51

That's incredible. And I'm sure it just lets you feel more free, right? Like now you can focus on the things that you know, you're really good at, or Develop a new design or whatever the case may be. Do your creative work without feeling that like pressure or anxiety of like, well, is this other thing going to be taken care of?

Dani: 41:11

Totally. And that's, I mean, I would say that's, like, the most important part about, like, building that team is, like, finding, you know, people that are passionate, have the drive, I think I've used the word aligned way too much in this interview, but it really is like, that is the most important part, you know.

Alane: 41:28

Exactly. Well, this has been such a fun conversation. I've absolutely loved getting to know you more and connecting off of Instagram and hearing your story. Um, so before we sign off, I would love to know, and I know our listeners would love to know what is one piece of advice that you would give to someone who is considering taking their calligraphy business full time.

Dani: 41:50

Um, well, I mean, I think that's just a circle back to posting what you want more of and just really like focusing and getting intentional. It sounds. Like this, like, woo woo talk, but when you actually write something down and when you actually, say, like, no, this is what I want to do, and you put that goal line there, like, you're going to do actions every day that's going to get you there, you know? So it's, I guess it's just woo woo advice.

Alane: 42:18

But I am here for the woo woo, so again, you are in good company. I feel like we are very aligned.

Dani: 42:23

I, I do too.

Alane: 42:25

Well, Dani, thank you so much for being on the podcast. This has been so fun. Um, and we'll be sure to link your Instagram and all of that and show notes so people can connect with you there.

Dani: 42:35

Awesome. Thank you so much for having me today.

Shaochen: 42:41

I'm here with Alice and Alice is the owner of Penned by Alice She's based in Madison New Jersey and has been in business since 2016 running her business full time while also balancing her full time role as a mom to two young kids she specializes in offering calligraphy engraving and bottle painting services for luxury events and brands in New York and New Jersey Welcome to the podcast Alice

Alice: 43:08

you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Shaochen: 43:10

Yeah I'm so excited to chat with you Um let's start just by if you can share with the listeners a bit about how you found calligraphy

Alice: 43:19

I would say like most of you, or like the majority of people, you know, I started when I first got engaged. So the moment I got engaged, I really wanted to learn calligraphy to address my own envelopes. At that time, I, there wasn't a lot of resources out there, like maybe some books out there, but really I kind of self taught myself to do all those things like envelopes and like do place cards and escort cards for myself. So that's, that's really how it all started. Like I've always been fascinated with, um, scripts. Even at a young age, like when third grade came along and they were like, Oh, you're learning script. I was, I was already scribbling at home, pretending

Shaochen: 44:07

when did you when did you pick up the hobby How long ago was that

Alice: 44:11

that was back in 2013. So yeah, yes,

Shaochen: 44:18

you start with like modern calligraphy or

Alice: 44:22

yeah,

Shaochen: 44:22

pointed

Alice: 44:23

yes. Pointed pen with modern calligraphy. Yes,

Shaochen: 44:28

Nice Okay That's how I learned as

Alice: 44:30

yeah.

Shaochen: 44:31

So that was 10 years ago You picked up a pen for the first time And at what point in this last decade did you decide to make calligraphy your primary source of income

Alice: 44:43

So backtracking, while I learned it in 2013, I was still holding like a full time corporate job in like finance accounting. In 2016, I was pregnant with my first kid and we had just moved to the suburbs from the city and the commute was very, very strenuous. Um, it was like a three hour round trip day. So it just wasn't. Conducive to being a parent and plus, both of us were in the accounting and finance and we were working very long hours. So we decided that I would stay home and, and be present with the kids and take care of the kids. So it was then around 2016 that I quit my job and to become a stay at home parent. And it was during that time where, you know, I'm sure, you know, like sometimes. being a first time mom can be a little isolating, like, you know, and moving to a new town. You don't, I haven't like established a core group of friends yet. So at that time, like I just was just finding ways to, you know, just get out the door mentally for, for my sake. I worked at paper source, so I found a job at paper source, you know, a couple hours a week just to get out of the house. But. That I was like just surrounded by so much inspiration there, I love cards, you know from gift wrapping paper You know, like all that handmade um wrapping paper and pens like, I was just inspired there and they also put me in charge of writing on the chalkboard outside. So once they figured out my skill, they were like, you're doing this now on I did that for a little while, but I mean, unfortunately it just wasn't sustainable from like a financial perspective because I was. It's pretty much spending all my money in the store. Yeah

Shaochen: 46:45

had to pay for childcare while you were there So it's like not really it wasn't as much for income though Right As it was for like the mental stimulation and the change of pace Like I can't imagine you know you were going from this sounds like a demanding job with a long commute and like seeing coworkers daily to a very different environment staying at home with kids Like I definitely found that shift to be I mean I I think for me I didn't go from like a corporate environment I kind of went from this like work from home environment And even that was still very different and you know still a shift So I imagine

Alice: 47:27

it was very Like lonely because, you know, I went from talking to many co workers to babbling with a newborn, you know, I mean, it was great, but also like, I need to work this mind, you know?

Shaochen: 47:41

Yeah like I would pay for somebody to come watch my kids for a few hours so I could take a break in the beginning when I've Like got back to working on my business and I wasn't really like generating income yet I was still kind of like rebuilding things back up a bit and like gaining momentum again because it was slow season to when I came back

Alice: 48:00

Yeah I

Shaochen: 48:04

not making money And that just puts This huge feeling of guilt my shoulders and then I had to really shift that mindset to be like that's not the equation that I should be looking at really what I'm trading my money for are the things that will keep me Mentally healthy and happy and make me a better mom in that way so I can show up for my kids better you know like that's what I'm paying for and that was such a big revelation for me not to be like oh well I'm paying them this much money and I'm making 0 So like how like how do I reconcile that That was a huge point of guilt for me

Alice: 48:41

can definitely, yeah, definitely relate to that,

Shaochen: 48:45

Yeah Yeah okay so let's go back to your story You picked up the part time job at PaperSource and then it sounds like you kind of left that at some point So how did that then transition into your own business

Alice: 48:57

so at that point, there's another step in between, Because I wasn't getting, you know, financially, like what I was looking for, um, I went back to part time accounting job, like work home, but it was really during that time that I just felt like this is really not speaking to me, like my soul and I just wasn't happy and like, I kind of dreaded signing in and doing, whatever projects I was for these other people. And while I was still good at it, it just wasn't fulfilling anymore. So like, it was really at that point that I was like, I need to find something that I actually love and have a passion for. So I was like, maybe I tried this calligraphy thing, you know. My first step was to really, I reached out to, um, someone local, a floral designer actually, in my town that was looking for a calligrapher for her workshop. So I was like, Oh, I'm, I'm a calligrapher, you know? And so we connected and she, she had told me about. Tuesdays together with like rising tide So like she had introduced me to, you know, we had coffee and and we met up with a bunch of people over time during those meetings. And I met a bunch of photographers and, makeup people, people, People in the wedding industry,

Shaochen: 50:21

Yeah

Alice: 50:22

that's when I started getting more motivation and like feeling that it could potentially be something, you know, that I could work on. Yes

Shaochen: 50:33

that community like minded people who are also creative and doing things that you're excited about I feel like that really helps

Alice: 50:41

definitely. Whatever I was saying, they, they, they just like got it immediately. And I was just like, wow. I'm understood here, you know, like

Shaochen: 50:50

Yeah

Alice: 50:51

they're, they're speaking my language. So it was that like that, I pivoted that way.

Shaochen: 51:00

So you kind of just started taking on more and more jobs that you found through that network that you built or like how did you start putting yourself out there

Alice: 51:10

So with rising tides, you know, especially with wedding professionals, a lot of what, how I got started was through.

Shaochen: 51:19

Yeah

Alice: 51:20

you guys were talking about in your podcast, you know, started and like, that's one of the ways, right. And that was definitely how it started for me was, you know, building my portfolio through working with all of these different vendors and getting good quality images of my work. And, um, It was through that and like, just starting up my social media that, and just by referrals, that, you know, I started getting more jobs and more projects that way. Yes

Shaochen: 51:52

for sure And then it kind of just snowballs from there with like word of mouth and people you've worked with and stuff like that

Alice: 51:58

definitely.

Shaochen: 51:59

we have a lot of listeners who are also in the category of being full-time moms and then working on their business during like nap time or bedtime And I wanted to talk a little bit about how you balance that do how do you think about balancing those two priorities

Alice: 52:20

I mean, I'll be honest in the beginning, like setting goals and, having a plan was very hard, everything was slow, because at the same time, like. I, my, my sole duty was to make sure this, this little human survives, you know? Um, and hopefully while they're napping or something, like I'm able to do something, you know, but it's, it's a really delicate balance, to do some, you know, to be a full time parent and try to. Like build a business. But the way I really just started was kind of going month to month, like in the beginning I was like, okay, like what can I do to, help myself, maybe it's like doing more style shoots and like, it's not, it wasn't so much monetary, but it was really more networking and just building. My portfolio at first and kind of getting my foot through the door whether it was other vendors or like, maybe go to my local stationery store and reach out to them to see if they needed calligraphers if they booked me, then I would look at my schedule, like, when can I do this? Okay. From 10 32, maybe, um, 1130, I could, you know, do a couple envelopes, you know, it was it was like, I called it nap time hustle, you know,

Shaochen: 53:43

Right So you kind of took like one goal for your business at a time and focus on that for like the month like you were saying right Okay And then how do you think about it now that you're more established like you've been running business since 2016 So this is your Is that right

Alice: 54:04

yeah,

Shaochen: 54:05

Yeah So like now you're more established you're getting more inquiries and more jobs and higher end brands And like how do you think about your business goals now Has that changed

Alice: 54:15

It's, it's definitely changed and I, I want to say it's changed based on, the season, based on the age of my kids,

Shaochen: 54:25

Mm hmm

Alice: 54:25

they're newborns, it's really hard to plan ahead. Well, for me, at least, you know, it was hard for me to plan so far ahead. But, now that they are, you know, in school, both in school, one of them isn't full time yet, so that's still tricky. But now that I have a little bit more time to myself, I can kind of hone in on what I would like to see for myself, down the line, you know, like whether it's, Redoing my branding or trying to work on the back end for like website and things like that so that I can gain more opportunities, you know, like these are the things that I'm sort of planning for now. Um, didn't wasn't able to before just because of time, you know, like it's. It's hard to find the time, now, like, it's still a juggling process because even when I do get an inquiry, let's say from a brand to come on site, there's so many things behind the scenes that I still have to do, like the logistics of like making sure like Maybe my mother in law could watch the kids while I, you know, head off to the city. But now it's also like creating a network of babysitters, that I trust that I could leave them for a couple hours while I just head out and not have to worry. So. Yeah. So these are the things that now that I'm more established and, and making a bit more, you know, like I'm happy to pay these people, like, like people I trust

Shaochen: 55:57

Yeah

Alice: 55:58

can actually go do the work,

Shaochen: 56:00

And I know you've been sharing some like pricing on your stories but I think it's a really great point about why it's important that we have rates that support our lives because part of your expenses is paying for child care sometimes And so you have to make sure that job is worth it for you to you know pay the child care spend the time away from your kids And that all gets factored into your pricing

Alice: 56:23

definitely like, I'm factoring in childcare. I'm still factoring, like all the gas and toll, you know, like just everything behind the scenes, like dinner for them, while I'm away, you know, like I ordered door dash or something

Shaochen: 56:38

that's true Right Yeah Everything adds

Alice: 56:41

Everything adds up and that's why we price the way we price, you know, and we, we, we have to like, stand by it.

Shaochen: 56:51

Yeah I agree so I wanted to ask you one more question which is what is one piece of advice you'd give somebody who is considering making calligraphy their sole source of income

Alice: 57:04

I guess from a mom perspective, I would say, I don't know if it's one piece of advice. But I would, I would say like, just give yourself grace, you know, that's one thing, allow yourself to be present if you want to be, also, network with a ton of people, speak to, you know, everyone and any, anyone who's creative, a small business owner, you don't have to be in your industry. Like, I feel like speaking to them. gives you a lot of clarity and how you might want to proceed with your own business.

Shaochen: 57:40

a lot of those connections did you build through Instagram like online Was it in person

Alice: 57:46

um, I would say a little bit of both, you know, like I've maintained a couple of great friends through, the Tuesdays Together, program. And then. Um, also on Instagram. I've actually met so many people like people like you, you know, people Elaine, and all these different calligraphers that, you know, I've met over the course of the years and, you know, we've got the group chat going, you know,

Shaochen: 58:09

yeah Have you met in person you are

Alice: 58:12

did, yeah, we did, it was like, what was it like last week? We, we went out to dinner and like, you know, we had Korean barbecue, you know, like we what

Shaochen: 58:22

I'm jealous

shaochen_1_03-07-2024_103457: 58:23

Like

Shaochen: 58:23

find me out next

Alice: 58:25

Oh, yeah. If you're here, let me, let us know We'll, we'll

Shaochen: 58:29

know That'd be so fun

Alice: 58:30

It's great connecting with everybody and just being open, like being open and communicating with people in your own industry is going to do you worlds of wonder, it's going to help you be more confident in your pricing. It's just We just lift each other up. So it's, I think that's just really important, you know?

Shaochen: 58:51

Yeah I agree Having that community for sure

Alice: 58:55

I mean, one thing that said to avoid, I would say to avoid like the hustling mentality, like that, like being a parent and wanting to hustle. You could totally hustle like I hustle, but like I hustle with. With, you know, making sure that I'm still home, like I'm still present, like, I don't know, it's just, I feel like there's so much out there that's telling us that you need to do this, you need to do that, and I don't know, it just feels too much sometimes, and overwhelming, I just would take it one step at a time, especially as a, a mom, you know, a parent, like, don't, Allow yourself to get into that mindset because then it becomes something negative.

Shaochen: 59:41

Yeah Yeah I can relate Like there are some days where like if I'm watching Emmett and I'm trying to get something done and I'm trying to like multitask I realize I end up not doing anything well I'm like half answering the email writing one sentence at a time and then I'm also not present with my kid

Alice: 1:00:01

Yes

Shaochen: 1:00:01

I totally like I hear what you're saying for sure It's like you just gotta focus on one thing at a time do that thing well you know Definitely. Yeah

Alice: 1:00:10

I feel like there have been times that I'm working on something and like, I, I, like, sometimes I snap a little bit at my kid, because I don't know, like I'm not being present again. You know, I just allow yourself to take that step back if you can. That's it

Shaochen: 1:00:27

And then Ashley I wanted to real quick touch on something you said earlier which I found interesting where when you said you went back to accounting and you realized that it felt like it felt different when you went back to it you weren't passionate about it anymore And I think it's so interesting how our parties change with kids where you realize that if you're spending time away from them it has to be something really valuable

Alice: 1:00:48

It's to be it

Shaochen: 1:00:51

yeah make it worth it to be away And so I I feel like that's it just like your parties more

Alice: 1:00:59

sure. Like everything I look at every single thing that comes to my plate, whether it's a job, whether it's like. I don't know anything like it could be anything like going going out with a friend, I really just weigh weigh the cost like is this gonna help me? Is this gonna make me a better person? Is this gonna make me a better mom like maybe going on a like a weekend trip with friends, you know Like anything like is this job for 35 worth my time? no

Shaochen: 1:01:31

makes it a lot more easy to say no to

Alice: 1:01:33

Yes. Yeah. But I look at everything now through that lens, it helps me plan better, like, is this going to help me? Is this going to help my kids? If not, probably not the right fit yeah I feel like

Shaochen: 1:01:51

wisdom and walking us through those trade offs that you make because I know we have a lot of moms and parents who are in the same position running their business on the side as well as a as a full-time mom and business owner So I appreciate your insights Thank you I had so much fun with those interviews. I can't wait to have more guests on our show and we're already starting to line up more people. I felt like there were a lot of great gems in those interviews. If I really had to sum things up, I would say that my biggest takeaway is that you have to do things one step at a time, no matter where you are in your business just to figure out one area of focus. For example, Hannah, she talked about how, when she first started, she really focused on weddings and understanding that market and getting jobs in that market before she moved on to live events. Alice, she focuses on kind of like one goal or theme. And then Danny, she really took like all of the COVID time period to build her skills and build her like dream portfolio to attract her ideal clients. So they really had a lot of like, intention and focus behind each step. There's no shortcuts in business, but it's reassuring to know that by taking 1 step at a time, you're getting to where you want to go, even though in real time, it might feel like those steps are small, but one day you're going to look back and realize how far you've come.

Alane: 1:03:15

Yeah, I agree. These interviews were so insightful and I had so much fun, like listening to them back after we recorded them and they were also just such a good reminder that nobody's business looks exactly the same. So kind of going back to like what we had talked about in, I think it was our episode four of. Mistakes to make, like you can make when you're growing your calligraphy business. You know, we said, don't compare your business to others. And I feel like this episode is really a testament to that idea that like. What works for one person may not work for another. So you really just need to figure out what's going to work best for you and focus on that, and that is going to take you where you want to go. So we hope that these conversations were a good reminder to go with your gut, trust the process, and that it always leads to where you're supposed to be. We can't thank Hannah, Danny, and Alice enough for spending time with us and sharing their stories. Make sure that you follow them all on Instagram. Hannah is at tallymark calligraphy. Danny is at its paper cliche and Alice is at pen by Alice and We'll be sure to link all of their handles and their websites and everything in our show notes So you can go give them a follow. With that our First interview style episode is in the books and we would love to hear what you thought of this one. So please DM us your thoughts or leave a review, send us an email and share your feedback.